Moving really heavy stuff on the lift...

[arctic003]

Hi

I recently built a bale lifter - basically like fork-lift forks but round.

My silage bales are really, really heavy - they are so wet that there is about 6" of water in the bottom of each bale. I can lift them up with our 6945, but the hydraulic pump really sounds liike it's working hard. The journey to my home farm is one hour, so obviously it's out of the question to bring them home like that. At least I can get two onto our trailer, albeit with a struggle.

The question then - how long can I safely keep something really heavy, say over 600kg, up in the air before something overheats or gets damaged?

Thanks,

J-P

 

[alan]

As long as the lift holds the weight without conststantly pumping it is ok to carry the load for long periods of time, if the pump is working continually to maintain lift height it will overheat in a very short time.

 

[crystalman]

You can move the pins on the lower lift arms to the outer position to get more lift but less height.Also put the DMP lever to P for position so the pump can rest when it reaches its setting;and don't operate the pump in 1000 rpm mode for a long period of time as that really will overheat the oil !

 

[Renze]

How tight did the contractor make these bales ?? i have never had 6 inches of water in a bale, but we had quite alot of 600 kg bales.

By the way, 1 hour drive ??? How many do you have there, and why do you have a field that far away ??

 

[arctic003]

Thanks for your replies folks!

Yes, the pump is working constantly to keep the bale up. What I'm doing now is taking them one by one to a place about 700m away from the field where I can get the trailer low enough (wheels in a ditch) to load the bales easily. From there it's by trailer, two bales at a time, for the trip home. Don't ask me if it's economical to do it like this

Crystalman, 1000rpm is not far from where I set tick-over revs...
To get the bales lifted this side of Christmas I have to give it some welly! My lift arms are on the inner holes, I need every inch, every centimetre even, of height to get the bales onto the trailer.

Renze the (47) bales are quite tight; the silage is mostly annual rye grass, very moist and leafy anyway. We had been having rain every day, and there was surface water on parts of the field when the bales were made. Not.. er.. ideal I know, but tell that to the weather goddess

The reason for the one hour drive is that the field is 30km away from our farm.

Ha ha!

No, we used to live just around the corner from those fields, which are on the edge of a semi-rural, semi-suburban area. Last summer we moved to a proper farm, but we have put so much time and effort into those fields it would be a shame to give them up, plus we have an ongoing 5 year REPS agreement on those fields, plus they grow tasty hay...

J-P

 

[Renze]

Arctic, Crystalman means the PTO rpm, not engine rpm. The oil pump is driven through the PTO drive. If the PTO is shifted from 540 to 1000, the oil pump is too.

Or maybe your 6945 doesn't have a 1000 rpm PTO ??

Hey you need a front loader. I can put at least 6 bales on a wagon, when i add some racks on the front and rear, to prevent the bales from rolling off, i can load 8 bales. With the new front loader, i think i am able to load 2 or 3 layers of bales on a truck trailer, which would mean 30 bales on a truck...

Why dont you build a flat trailer, where the frame in relation to the wheels is like this: -----0--- So you could load bales at 40 cm height, just not on the place where the wheels are. With a wagon like this, you dont even need a flatbed, just some big 5" pipes to lay them on, would be good enough...

My neighbor used to have a wagon like this, to move silage blocks from the farm of his father in law, to his main farm.

 

[arctic003]

Hi,

No, mine is just 540.

The pipe trailer idea is good, I was thinking to make something similar to the ones on this website:
http://www.jdlsalesinc.com/cattle/trailer.html
It's a question of finding the materials from someone who has a scrap trailer they don't want - even scrap metal is expensive, about 0.5e per kilo. Add the cost of welding rods and cutting disks and the cost of the trailer would easily be a couple of hundred euros

I need a front loader, do I?? So you had that idea too huh

Yeah, a front loader would be really nice. First I really seriously have to find a way to make some money - just buying diesel is a problem at the moment

 

[treaney]

Hi ZetorFolks,

Arctic originally asked about moving heavy silage bales on the lift arms. The discussion then moved towards discussion of whether 540 or 1000 RPM PTO/hydraulic pump speeds are best and bale trailers.

On my MF 35, once the lift arms are raised, I can move a lever (on a 3 position valve mounted on tranmission tunnel) to cut off the oil supply to the lift and lock the load in place. I can then knock off the lift pump. The thing is I don't know how you would do this on a Zetor - do you guys have any insight?

The limiting factor here is the quality of the hydraulic seals. Also, it might require an occasional boost to lift the bale after hitting bumps/potholes.

TomZ
Tom

 

[alan]

The easiest way would be to fit a assistor ram which would enable the bales to be lifted easily in the first place & have the advantage of giving the pump an easier job to do.
This extra ram would need plumbing into the internal hydraulic system

 

[arctic003]

Hi ZetorFolks,

Arctic originally asked about moving heavy silage bales on the lift arms. The discussion then moved towards discussion of whether 540 or 1000 RPM PTO/hydraulic pump speeds are best and bale trailers.

On my MF 35, once the lift arms are raised, I can move a lever (on a 3 position valve mounted on tranmission tunnel) to cut off the oil supply to the lift and lock the load in place. I can then knock off the lift pump. The thing is I don't know how you would do this on a Zetor - do you guys have any insight?

The limiting factor here is the quality of the hydraulic seals. Also, it might require an occasional boost to lift the bale after hitting bumps/potholes.

TomZ
Tom

Hi Tom

Doesn't the Zetor hydraulics work a bit like this anyway, when it is in 'Position' mode?

One idea I've had is to physically hold the load up, as in use a metal bar or the like to somehow wedge the lift arms up after the load has been raised. I do this as a matter of course with my Fordson Major as the spool valve is leaky - I use a pair of chains from the tractor end of the top link mounting to the lower arms in order to set the working height of an implement.

Alzet's idea of additional hydraulic help was interesting - I suppose I'd need to use a second hydraulic pump though and not just a cylinder connected to the existing external hydraulics (because that would be using the same pump as was working the lift arms).

Interesting stuff...

J-P

 

[markku]

Arctic,

If it lift the bale up, there is no problems. But if it doesnt lift it up, it runs the oil flow thought the over-preussure valve. 2nd you should never keep the "position" lever physically on the "NOSTO" position, because then oil CAN be flowing through the preussure valve. This is because the finnish type of trailer coupling....

The lever doesnt even keep (it selves) on the upper position if the resit of the lever is adjusted correctly. The "NOSTO" position is only designed for quickly lifting hitch up when the "TOIMINTAHERKKYYS" lever is in low position.

Try this: Take a heavy bale on the lift. Mode lever to position "P". Then put sensitivity lever to "low" position. Give some revs for engine (About 1700). Turn operating lever to up nearly to "lift" position. The hitch should now raise slowly to up. Let bale back down and do same again exept turn the operating lever totally up to "lift" position (keep it there). Now the hitch should raise faster!

Did you get the idea! This is designed only for keeping works running faster! Example MF hydraulics and many other mechanically controlled hitches didnt ever had function like this!!!

And about MF hitch. The "transport" position keeps the preussure up in the lifting cylider(s). Constantly! It doesnt pump the oil to cylinder but it keeps the preussure up. "constanly pumping" position pump oil constantly as long as the preussure valve get open.

Zetor hydraulic doesnt keep the preusssre up when you dont use it. The valve locks the cylinder and let the oil flow get return back to gearbox.

Zetor Chrystall and ZTS hydraulics are little bit different but mainly same idea..

 

[Renze]

Arctic,

Yes, that trailer is exactly what i mean !!!

A frontloader is a very versatile tool, which has many more use around the farm. The investment would not be to just move bales, but a lot of other things !! (Manure loading, digging, lifting heavy stuff in the workshop, and with a manbucket you can cut tree limbs around the field...)
Just, frontloaders are not to be used at speeds faster than 10 km/h when fully loaded... You need to tranport them empty, with the load on a wagon behind.

Our Deutz also has a lever on the hitch housing: It mechanically locks up the hitch in tranport position, with a pawl inside the Bosch lift.


"just buying Diesel is a problem at the moment"

...Just think of the fuel you save, when taking these bales home in 3 trips instead of 47...

one hour per bale, 47 bales...47 hours of driving is 100 liter of fuel ?? and you would probably cut this field 3 times a year... It might take only 2 or 3 years before the pipe wagon has payd for itself by saving fuel...

 

[crystalman]

One of the reasons we bought our first Zetor was because the hydraulics are so much better than on any Massey we could afford to buy at the time.Newer MF's are better now they have stopped using Ferguson T20 hydraulic pumps! We spent ages adding shut off valves and diverter valves to our MF 135 to try and use a push off buckrake on it when we decided to cut our own silage.But still when you pushed off the buckrake the lift arms would go down at the same time so you couldn't reverse and push off at the same time.And with a loader unless you chained up the counter weight that would drop so you had to wait for it to come up again before you could reverse!With even our old 6748 it has enough hydraulic capacity to use buckrakes and loaders without any modifying except for piping up the spool valves.

 

[arctic003]

"just buying Diesel is a problem at the moment"

...Just think of the fuel you save, when taking these bales home in 3 trips instead of 47...

one hour per bale, 47 bales...47 hours of driving is 100 liter of fuel ?? and you would probably cut this field 3 times a year... It might take only 2 or 3 years before the pipe wagon has payd for itself by saving fuel...

Yes Renze my friend that line of mathematical thinking had occured to me too

Actually the round trip, that is two hours of driving, plus a few hours around the farm usually costs me around 16e. Red diesel was nearly 0,70e when I tanked up the other day. 100 litres of diesel? More like 600L! (I can take two bales at a time on our general purpose trailer..just!

The thing is, 16e for diesel for the round trip is something that I can lay my hands on from time to time, whereas larger sums like I'd need for trailer building aren't.

Life can be more economical for those with a bit more money!

003

 

[Renze]

To throw in some extra complexity to the matter:

When you could take 2 wagons with 16 bales at a time, it would bring your bales home in 3 trips. Of about 25 Euro of fuel . Totals 75 Euro and 8 hours of work.

If you spend 16 Euro of fuel and 2 hours of labor to take 2 bales home, you spend 47 hours and 376 Euro of fuel !!!

If you would go out to work for someone else, for 10 Euro per hour, you could earn 470 Euro in those hours you saved by doing the work quicker !!

376 plus 470 is 846 Euro !!!!

....I dont know if you have a job out of house, and how well it pays, but i guess making a bale wagon is best earned money !!

...Cant you just let the bales wait, and save the money in the mean time, so you can build a 10 or 12 bale pipe wagon ??
A front loader would be nicer, but hey, you need to bring the bales home, other frontloading would be just luxury !!

 

[arctic003]

....
....I dont know if you have a job out of house, and how well it pays, but i guess making a bale wagon is best earned money !!
....
...Cant you just let the bales wait, and save the money in the mean time, so you can build a 10 or 12 bale pipe wagon ??
....

Hi
1. No, I don't - I should try to think of something I can do at home to make an income (heh heh manufacturing bale trailers for example )

2. No, I can't let them wait. Our furry-eared friends would have something to say about that!

To go back to question 1, I am starting a feasibility study to look at the possibility of producing small bale haylage (regular small square hay bale size). Once I produce the preliminary study, then I can approach the local Agricultural Development office with it. If it looks good to them, then they can help finance a more in-depth study that takes several days, and after that maybe there could be some EU start-up assistance available to me. But it all takes time...

Regards

J-P

 

[Paddy]

Maybe I am dreaming here, but I seem to recall some guy in Ireland who had a similar problem with transporting heavy bales with a small tractor. He figured out a way to attach a wheel or maybe two wheels which he could manually raise and lower and lock in either the up or down position with a pin.

Example, wheels are raised to the up position when picking up the bale. Bale is then lifted hydraulically to top position and the wheel frame is swung into the lower position and locked in place with a pin(s).
Lift is then gentle lowered until wheels make contact with the ground. Wheels ideally would be able to pivot like the wheels on say a PZ haybob or such like.

Tom, maybe you recall something like this being featured in the Irish Farmars Journal.

In any case it sounds perfectly feasable.

We are pretty famous in Ireland for having fragmented farms, but this case really takes the buscuit.

 

[Renze]

the "bale hustler" is also an option....
http://tube-o-lator.farmca.com/

This means that you just need the collecting wagon, and no 3pt bal lifter to lift them on the pipe wagon.


I have been thinking last year, of building a wagon like the bale hustler (but grabbing 2 rows of bales next to each other) that can tip the frame up, so it would stack the bales into 2 towers of 2 bales high...

With an extra lifting cylinder and sled, it would also be possible to put these 2 bale towers upright on a wagon....

 

[arctic003]

Paddy, you are a genius.

I've made a thing almost exactly like the "heavy duty bale lifter" here
http://www.royperfect.co.uk/equipment.php
only simpler, without the tipping facility.

If I put a removable caster wheel on the cross-piece between the forks (I have one already from another scrap machine) I have a solution to the problem, if I ever want to take one bale on a longer trip. This I may want to do, if I ever sell a single bale to someone nearer my fields than my farm. Then I could do the job without transhipping the bale on and off the trailer.

At the moment I've been getting by putting two onto my tipper trailer. That is, one for my own use and one for a neighbour about hours drive from here. At the moment we are feeding them out straight away so damage to the wrapping is of no consequence.

Thanks again

J-P

 

[Renze]

Arctic,

I think when i show you a picture of our bale carrier, you would probably say "that's exactly the same"....

Why do you want the support wheel on the bale carrier ? Wouldn't it be easier to hang some front ballast weights ??
With the 6718 (which is a lot lighter up front because it is 2wd) we dont have any problems, even without front weights.

 

[arctic003]

Hi Renze!

I think the answer to your question is back up there in the first post on this thread

 

[Renze]

O.K. And Alzet and Tom have already given an answer to that as well...

Are there no contractors in your area, that have some big flatbed trailers and a loader tractor, or wheel loader to load the bales ??

...Only if you could find someone renting out some wagons and a wheel loader, you could pull the wagons with your 6945 and leave the bale handling to the custom worker....

 

[arctic003]

Hey, and guess what?? Markku was exactly right.

If I move my hitch position lever slightly forward from the fully back position (marked NOSTO on my tractor too), the hydraulic pump stops groaning!!

Thanks Markku!

 

[Renze]

???
So, the pickup trailer hitch is blocking the lift from going fully up, so the pump keeps pumping pressure under it because it doesn't reach the height where the control system locks the lift cylinder and returns the pump oil flow pressure less ??

 

[arctic003]

No, It's something different. There is a setting for the position lever beyond the "fully raised" position.

If you do as Markku described, and put the sensitivity lever to the right, then the arms move up slowly. Very slowly. BUT if the position lever is moved into the rearmost position they come up just as fast as if the sensitivity lever was full to the left. In _this_ position, the pump is running the whole time - when there is a heavy weight on the lift, anyway.

It may be that your tractor is different; Markku implied that this arrangement was because of the Finnish trailer coupling system. I can't comment on that because I don't have any experience of tractors that are for other markets than Finland.

Cheers for now

J-P

 

[markku]

Nice You got the idea!

Unfortunately Renze is in right too. The finnish type trailer coupler can sometimes limit the moving scale of lower arms ???

If you adjust the coupler lifting rods longer the coupler doesnt get up enought.... And if you srew them tight the hitch cant get totally up.

But this type of coupler is very handy and we can pull huge loads even from difficult places. And finnish law says: You can not mount any connection that is higher what wheel center is

I am a criminal!!!!!! My round bales is connected to trailer coupler If police does read this Ill be in jail soon!