news Zetors future vision on Agritechnica

Renze · Nov 10, 2015

Zetor added a full picture of the 50hp prototype, with no model designation, so i will refer to it as Minor 50 which is the most logical name for a compact Zetor: The 1962 Zetor 2011 Minor was aimed at small farms, as it was a smaller 3011 which was the Major. (and 4 cylinder 4011 was the Super) It undoubtedly has a big potential in the USA for large residential owners, and i think the series name of Minor will work, even though the 2011 link isnt recognised in its most important market.

https://scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/t31.0-8/12239444_1215743265107999_2343537206706315169_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

This model is too big for a compact, it fits into the subcompact category, yet the tires look way too small for a 50hp, this looks like 24" ??? This tire size is suitable for the compact category, for the subcompact category 14.9R28 and 360/70R18 like the Lindner Geotrac 50 would be more acceptable also because it has no ground clearance under the front axle. Especially the front wheels need bigger because this size of tractor in the USA is allmost allways a loader tractor.

When you compare the 50hp subcompact residential models offered in America, you see they all have either 12.4 or 13.6 R28 rear tires:

Comparison Results

agriculture1.newholland.com

So, there is a standard to extract in frame size on both sides of the Atlantic: In America they can put it against the JD 4M, NH T4, MF 1700 series, and in Europe they can put it against alpine greenland tractors like the Lindner Geotrac 50 and 65, if they increase the wheel size, and perhaps put the front axle further forward for better stability with a front loader

The American market would require an optional powershuttle because Carraro doesnt have a hydrostatic gearbox in their program, which is a popular option in America. (but not in Europe)

I think commercially this is a very good move, as there is market both in small family farms in the Central European countries, and at residential owners in the USA. Especially in the US, this market is easy to penetrate because many residential owners dont have long term brand loyalty like US professional farmers have.

hughbroome2 · Nov 11, 2015

Here is the official news release.

ZETOR TRACTORS a.s.

Zetor tractors, service and original spare parts.

www.zetor.com

I am quite excited about the new "Minor" series. This could potentially be really good for Zetor. If they build a substantial tractor, it could be a really good competitor again the NH Workmaster series (Mexican built), the MF 2600 series (Indian built), and the other lightly built Japanese brands (Kubota).

Renze · Nov 11, 2015

Yes, Zetor sold quite a few 5211/45 and 3320/40 in the USA: A dealer told me it was so popular because it was the cheapest tractor for sale, that could handle a big round bale on the loader.

This Minor 50 wont be able to meet that with this wheelbase, the front axle must move further forward and the tire size must be moved one size up. Especially in the USA the stability with a loader is a key sales argument, and for alpine greenland farmers, stability is also important.

Anyways, American dealers will be delighted by this news : I have spoken to two or three of them and they were all asking for a Minor, (3320/40 replacement, for above reasons) when the Major came out.

MF 1700 and 2600 series, the Minor (as well as NH Workmaster series) seem to overlap both the 1754 and the smaller 2600 series. In America this used to be an easy market for Zetor to penetrate. They can do it again and turn over some numbers

Unofficially, Zetor is speaking of a "heavy duty compact" or what the rest of the world calls a sub-compact, which would then be called Proxima E-lite, for as long as its been talking about the Maxterra. However i think they will realise that in the US subcompact market, market penetration is much easier than regaining lost ground in the contractors tractor market, so i do believe they will come with this Minor within 2 years.

Apparently i misread what was on the wall at Agritechnica, they will add a 24/12 option on the Major with T5.0 rear end, not create another series above it, with a T10.0 gearbox.
This means, the Major name will reflect a chassis size rather than a level of sophistication, like it did with the 1998 Major series. (i edited the above post to correct my misinterpretation)

If they build this new three cylinder of 49hp (i saw a design sketch with Zetor 12V on it) they can use 12 year old TIER 3A technology in the 25-50hp class, untill TIER 5 arrives in 2019... By then, emission values are the same from 25 to 75hp, and from 75 to 750 hp... Which would make it very likely that in the future, the 3 cylinder will be legislated in the 25-75hp class (minor, Major) and the four and six pots (Proxima Forterra Crystal Maxterra) in the 75-750

hp class.

Emission Standards: Europe: Nonroad Engines

www.dieselnet.com

hughbroome2 · Nov 13, 2015

Yes. We do like small 30-60 horsepower utility tractors here. I think many smaller farmers here still would like tractor manufacturers to offer models similar to the Ford 2000, 3000, or 4000 or MF 135, 165 or 175. My grandfather bought a new Ford 4000 in 1972; a neighboring farmer bought it from him in 1980. The neighboring farmer sold it in 2002 with like 8000 hrs on it. It sold in 2002 for more than my grandfather paid new in 1972.

Anyway back to Zetor , the love for a well built small utility tractor is why I think the Minor 50 may do really well in the US, so I can see why dealers were asking for a replacement to the 3320/3340. I also think it will do well due to the 12 year old technology that they can employ on the engine to meet the less stringent emissions of the 25-50 hp class. I think the average small farmer has a distrust for the electronics on the newer tractors. I totally agree with you that the tire size definitely needs to be larger though. It looks almost like a low profile version of the Major in the pictures that I have seen.

I am a bit disappointed that they didn't update the Major rear end from the T5.0 to the T10.0, but I am not suprised. They probably want to keep the cost of the Major down. Plus if they had a nice heavy rear end, it might scavenge Proxima sales more than it already has.

I am excited about the Maxterra or Crystal HD series; whatever Zetor wants to call it. I am not sure that it, the Crystal, or the Forterra HD will do well in the US. Most larger farmers or contractors, use Deere. Like you said, the subcompact market is a very profitable market here in the US. My local MF dealer now has 25-30 Kubotas on the lot and 3 Massey Fergusons.

Speaking of MF, I noticed that they introduced the 4700 series cab version at Agritechnica. Do you know anything about this series? Who builds it for Agco? I know the 3600 series is built by Carraro and the 4600 series that we get in the US is built by Iseki in Japan. I read in a blog that Agco built a brand new factory in China and that is where the new 4700 series will be assembled.

Renze · Nov 13, 2015

According to their website, the 4700 is a global series, developed in Beauvais, france, and produced at several locations over the world. 90% of the tractor is new, using state of the art production methods. I do not know of any other MF transmission with 6 speed and 2 ranges, the old ones had 4 gears and 3 ranges. The front axle is a portal style, as Iseki allways uses.

The 4700 series compares best with the Proxima models in size.

hughbroome2 · Nov 13, 2015

Ok. Thank you. I am not sure what you mean by portal style front axle. I think the 4600 series, built by Iseki, had a beveled gear front axle. It seems the 4700 series has a planetary housing. I assume that is what you are calling portal style.

It does seem that the 4700 series are Proxima size, but probably not built nearly as heavy. I wonder how the torque of the Sisu 3 cylinder compares to the Zetor engines?

Renze · Nov 13, 2015

Its like the Belarus axle, it has a vertical driveshaft at the centerline of the kingpin. This way the axle tube and diff can be mounted higher thsn the center of the front wheels.

zetorfanpl · Nov 14, 2015

Front axle on 4700 is Carraro 20.11 like on their website or Dana as they show on Agritechnica

http://int.masseyferguson.com/mf4700.aspx

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsgWxmrNhDA

Rear axle as they says is a 5600 series design.

hughbroome2 · Nov 14, 2015

Renze, I see. Do you prefer that design of axle? I think it seems a bit cheaper.

zetorfanpl, I thought the rear axle look familiar. It seems Massey needs to pick a tractor axle design for the 75-95 hp economy class. First, Carraro for the 3600 series, then Iseki for the 4600 series, now themselves for the new 4700 series.

What do you guys think about the new 12V Zetor 3 cylinder. Do you think it will be a 3 cylinder version of the 4.2L 4 cylinder? My calulations show that with a 105 mm bore and a 120 mm stroke that it will be 3.1L. If Zetor can develop a 3 cylinder, then what is stopping them from building a 6 cylinder?

What are your thoughts on the Motorpal Common Rail System?

Renze · Nov 14, 2015

Renze, I see. Do you prefer that design of axle? I think it seems a bit cheaper.

Actually, i dont... This design has a vertical transfer shaft, rotating on the same centerline as the wheel steering pivots. Wear in the kingpin bushings will cause misalignment of the bevel gears. I would prefer planetary end reductions to generate torque, so the differential itself can remain small, together with decent size front wheels: The rolling resistance is so much lower, and the climbing capacity when sinking into soft soil is much, much better with higher wheels, (because of the angle of approach of an obstacle) even if they have a lower contact area.

What do you guys think about the new 12V Zetor 3 cylinder. Do you think it will be a 3 cylinder version of the 4.2L 4 cylinder? My calulations show that with a 105 mm bore and a 120 mm stroke that it will be 3.1L. If Zetor can develop a 3 cylinder, then what is stopping them from building a 6 cylinder?

What is stopping them is the cost of meeting emission levels, and a lack of a proper gearbox that will help sell these six cylinders. The 3 cylinder in the 25-50hp class can meet emissions by itself, without aftertreatment. In fact, Zetor already knows what comes out of the exhaust because they obviously tested their Forterra engines without soot filter and EGR, to know what aftertreatment they should use. Its a home run for them, just another application of existing technology, of which most variables are known. The six pot will not be allowed in TIER 3A, so they will have to use a soot filter and advanced turbocharging to get a torque curve that meets todays demands, and equals the competition. The torque figures i have seen of the Forterra 135 16V engine fitted with a prototype of the Motorpal CR system, is only marginally better than the mechanical inline pump. They will have to revise their whole engine setup to take effect of the CR system... Which they dont have to, when building a three cylinder with very low specific power, based on a technology level of which they have 10 years of experience...

What are your thoughts on the Motorpal Common Rail System?

Belarus (or Minsk Tractor Works) is already driving around with a prototype fitted with it. Motorpal says being able to offer a CR system is the only way to survive the future. Which i think is correct, even though i love the simplicity and the alternative fuel tolerance of the classic inline pump, you can only achieve todays low end torque from a downsized engine that meets the emission norms, with a CR system...

Renze · Nov 14, 2015

Front axle on 4700 is Carraro 20.11 like on their website or Dana as they show on Agritechnica
http://int.masseyferguson.com/mf4700.aspx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsgWxmrNhDA

Rear axle as they says is a 5600 series design.

That really makes it a Proxima competitor... straightforward driveline but heavy axles...

Renze · Nov 18, 2015

Hmm Ursus is getting on with their Vigus Power 160 transmission: Apparently they now bring it out up to 180hp instead of 160hp...

https://fbcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/12004062_1162834500397049_6949258552876577257_n.jpg?oh=3cc2d0dae0b5525368f820237c847a9b&oe=5693700E&__gda__=1453009317_118b3c8ffa0d4576e1e70e1f2ee45cf7

I hope Zetor is doing something about their rear axles, because for sure Ursus improved this rear axle a LOT over the old 1634 rear axle (which was junk by the way)
Sturdy trumpet housings bolted aside the diff housing, and the halfshafts are flared out to the wheel flange to get a gradual transition on the point where most European halfaxles break: at the transition from shaft to flange. JD and Case (Maxxum) had the same flared transition, and rarely broke a halfshaft. All European tractors (with an abrupt transition from flange to shaft) had halfshaft breaking problems in the late 90's

The trained eye sees from the design that someone has been thinking very good about it...

I know that Zetor only has one shot at it, because when they fail this DSG development, the market wont give them a second chance.... but damn, every day their dealers cant offer this, they loose customers... 180hp and a six speed DSG would get their dealers off their back and give their R&D some breath, so R&D can fully focus on Stage 5 in 2019....

hughbroome2 · Nov 19, 2015

I agree, Renze. They should've hired a design firm for the interior of the cabs. I think that would've had more impact with the farmers than the new Pinanfarina concept. It did garnish alot of media attention, but the styling does look generic and straight from SDF.

An ergonomic interior with the new DSG and heavy axles should be a good seller.

Renze · Nov 29, 2015

UK newspapers say that at 160hp the Crystal transmission is at its limits, and a bigger model (visitors have already spotted a 180hp prototype in Brno before the Crystal was even introduced to the public) would come with a new transmission. And on top of that a future range would have 200-250hp.

Now, the trademark registration database shows that Zetor re-registered the Zetor Crystal trademark at the same time as the Zetor Super trademark. Hence i was expecting this "broadening of the Major range" to be an improved basic Proxima which would be called Super, like the 7341 Super alongside the 7340 Major.

Originally this model name Super, first appeared on the 35 Super of 1954, which at that time was a huge lump of a tractor. A local contracting company had two of them in the late 50's and my (now deceased) neighbour remembers them as "two of those huge Zetors pulling the manure spreaders"
In the fifties, the Super was king size, they were put in the same league as the first 7130 Magnum in our country, owned by this very same contractor in 1988, compared to their fleet of Renault 145-14 tractors in the 80's

So historically the name Super would fit better on a big range of heavy duty tractors, e.g. a range that competes in the Fendt 800 and Deere 7 series class... Also, the simple name of Super speaks volumes, where the name Maxterra is a bit over the top. Going over the top is something for the chinese newcomers, not for a 70 year old brand that has a great history to look back at.

hughbroome2 · Nov 29, 2015

So you think the new 180 hp "Crystal HD" series will be called the Super? Or do you mean the 200-250hp series will be called the Super? Do you think that the Maxterra name is dead?

Renze · Nov 29, 2015

So you think the new 180 hp "Crystal HD" series will be called the Super? Or do you mean the 200-250hp series will be called the Super? Do you think that the Maxterra name is dead?

The rumor was about Forterra HD 180 which was spotted by an employee of a Zetor dealer visiting the training center, though this new six pot series was introduced as Crystal, not as six cylinder Forterra HD. Zetor UK spoke about a bigger Major which would be called the Super. However Zetor published that the new models would be additional variants of the Major 80hp, not models above the Major up to 80Kw (110hp) which would effectively compete with the basic Proxima.

Then, thinking out loud, Zetor registrated the trademarks Zetor Crystal and Zetor Super at the same time, but there is no notice of a trademark registration of Zetor Maxterra. As said, the Zetor Super in the lighter utility tractor market, was used as a series designation from 1997-2004, and as a model designation on the 4011 from 1963-1968, though it was originally used on the Super 35 and Super 50 from 1954-1968 as a predecessor of the Crystal. The designation Super was also used by ZTS on the last generation of UR2.

What Zetor has effectively announced, is that next to the 12/12 Major 80, a Major Plus and a Major Power will be introduced (they didnt say these Plus and Power names, but i use them for reference to compare them with the heavier duty Proxima range)
There is no speak of a Super series as economy tractor above the Major, parallel to the Proxima anymore, So there i am proposing to use that model designation for a series that compares to the original Super: a heavy duty contractors tractor, the 200-250hp series which the English press is talking about.

The direction Zetor is now taking with additional Major models, means that the name (Major, Proxima, Forterra) directs to a certain chassis size, not to a level of sophistication. Therefor it would be more logical that the DSG gearbox now under development, (and which first prototype was designed to fit in an existing Forterra/Crystal chassis) will be a trim level of the Crystal (and Forterra HD) and another model designation is used for a bigger chassis size that compares to Fendt 800, Deere 7R, Deutz 7 series, etcetera. Only NH is using different chassis sizes within the T7 series, all the others split them between a 6 and a 7 range, or in Fendts case: a 700 and an 800 range.

So i am not stating anything, just observing, and thinking out loud with some suggestions.

hughbroome2 · Nov 29, 2015

You may be right. With Zetor 's revival of the Crystal name, they are sure to rely on the historical significance of the Super nameplate.

I think Zetor will soon need to simplify it's model lineup. It's getting complicated: Major and its variants, Proxima and its variants, Forterra and Forterra HSX, Forterra HD, Crystal, 180 hp prototype, and 200-250 hp range. If I were in product strategy for Zetor, I would combine the Forterra HD and Crystal ranges and give them the heavier axle supposedly going in the 180 hp prototype. I would unify between the Forterra HD and Crystal the styling and call it the Crystal range; a customer could select between the 4 and 6 cylinder models in the range. I would do away with the Forterra and bring a common, ergonomic cab interior to the Forterra HSX, my Crystal range, and the new "Super" range. This would effectively simplify the lineup to Major and its variants, Proxima and its variants, Forterra HSX, Crystal, and "Super."

Commonality between the ranges, leads to less production costs, lowers R & D costs, etc. One common, ergonomic cab interior for the upper range tractors would make it easier for operators to switch tractors. It just makes logical sense to simplify their ranges.

Renze · Nov 30, 2015

My guess is that as soon as the 180hp prototype with a more advanced transmission is out, the Forterra HD will be dropped and replaced by 4 cylinder Crystal models, in both a basic trim with mechanical hydraulic valves and either the 3 speed powershift or the 6 speed DSG, and an advanced trim with the 6 speed DSG and the hydraulics of the Forterra HD.

IMHO the Forterra HD never made any sense, it combines the transmission of the 90s with the electrohydraulics of the higher trim levels (semipowershift or CVT tractors) of today. Those who are willing to pay for the advanced hydraulics, will not accept the 3 stage powershift transmission, and those who are statisfied with the transmission, do not want to pay for the advanced hydraulics they dont need.
Next to that, is the classic Forterra sold at all ? Can it even compete with a used MX100C or a 6430 ? I dont know how many they sell them back in the East, but here one would be stupid to buy a tractor of above 100hp, of this spec level, brand new.

Here in Holland customers never quite went for the Proxima Plus, most rather pay some more and get a Proxima Power. In the UK however, the Plus models seem quite popular.

What we see now, is a Minor range (greenkeeping, estates and alpine farming) a Major range (landscape, small hobby and/or family farms) a Proxima range (dairymans tractor) a Forterra range (allround light field range) Crystal (lower medium field range) and Super, contractors and medium field class.

So far they are doing fine, but in each frame size there are trim levels that dont match up. The Proxima cab interior is much nicer than that of the Forterra and Crystal, and it has four external remotes where the Forterra HSX and Crystal have only three...

What Zetor really needs as a quick fix to improve their HSX and Crystal a lot, is change the geometry of the door gas strut, put in the Proxima side panel with external remotes, and add the hand throttle lever to this side panel. That would make it an ideal basic spec level tractor in the Western markets.

Right now, Zetor is missing opportunities with each new model they introduce.. the HD was a waste of resources because it meets neither basic nor higher spec standards, and the Crystal is a missed opportunity because they didnt upgrade the interior to at least the standard of the Proxima: use the right side upholstery of the Proxima and the left hand side upholstery of the HD.

hughbroome2 · Dec 1, 2015

I totally agree with you; their ranges seem to be all over the place. There is no tiering. When you step up to a higher horsepower tractor, a customer expects a better appointed cab. Like you said, the Proxima right side panel is very tastefully done, yet the Forterra remotes look straight from the 1980s.

The Proxima Plus is no longer sold here in the North American Market, but the Zetor website still lists the classic Forterra.

Maybe they can get the door geometries fixed and implement a good right side panel in the cab. They have a good reliable tractor, just need to fix the ergonomics.

Renze · Dec 1, 2015

Maybe they can get the door geometries fixed and implement a good right side panel in the cab. They have a good reliable tractor, just need to fix the ergonomics.

Yes, its unbelievable how much can be improved with so little cost, it would add next to nothing to the cost price but add greatly to the product value.

hughbroome2 · Dec 11, 2015

I just saw this new article today; it is a month old. I don't know how I haven't noticed it before. I think we had discussed some of this in the other thread about the Pininfarina concept, but I wanted to put it on the forum in case we didn't discuss all of it.

To sum up the article, the new "Minor" or Prototype 50 is definitely destined for hobby farmers, like Renze said earlier. Now, we know it will come with an 8x8 transmission. "The prototype features a three-cylinder engine that delivers 49 HP. The tractor will use a mechanical gearbox with full synchronization, eight forward and eight reverse gears and a maximum speed of 30 kph."

The expanded Major series will be nice too. "They will be available with four-cylinder engines delivering 75.3 HP and several gearbox variants. The machines will feature either a gearbox with 12 forward and 12 reverse gears or a gearbox with 24 forward and 12 reverse gears which will be operated via a two-stage torque multiplier (PowerShift) and a hydraulic shuttle ((PowerShuttle). Redesign of the controls has been also mentioned. A novel feature is the second seat. All new models will have a 120-liter tank and a maximum speed of 40 kph."

Zetor Tractors Announces Two New Series | Farms.com - http://www.farms.com/news/zetor-tractors-announces-two-new-series-100574.aspx

===edit by Renze: repaired the weblink

Renze · Dec 11, 2015

The Major, though its rear end is no comparison to a Proxima rear end, has a pretty sturdy front axle, with allmost the same load rating as the rear axle. It makes a pretty good loader tractor, and with powershuttle it will be even more popular as an around-the-yard tractor.

zetorfanpl · Dec 14, 2015

Ursus showed on Agritechnica C-385 Power which uses Carraro with Powershuttle and Hi-Lo Powershift 24x12. They says that rear lift can handle 4000 kg
Ursus C-385 Power on fb

And new Ursus 11054 Power - 24 x 24 Carraro transmission with Synchroshuttle and Power Shift
Ursus 11054 Power on fb

Renze · Dec 14, 2015

The Ursus 385 most likely has the T10.0 rear end, because of the 3pt lift force exceeds the T5.0 capacity, and because they already have the C-380 with the T5.0 rear end.

It is clear that Ursus sees Zetor as its biggest competitor, because they also start naming their new models historical names, and use the addition "power" Zetor uses. They even start downsizing the engines, given the 3.4 liter Perkins instead of the old 4.4 liter

zetorfanpl · Dec 20, 2015

@Renze look at Carraro Drivetech site. They already updated their transmissions.
http://www.carrarodrivetech.com/media/u/sheet_en/2015/AG_Technical_Data_2015.pdf
===edit by Renze: Fixed the weblink (this forums link format sucks, i know)

hughbroome2 · Dec 22, 2015

So the T5.0 now becomes the T100, and the T10.0 becomes the T120.

So, the Major Plus or Power will utilize the new T100 with the 24x24. Wonder if it will be the T100 Powershift model or the Dual Clutch version?

Renze · Dec 22, 2015

I think just the powershift model. the chassis is too light to appeal to farmers that would pay for a dual clutch gearbox.

In fact, i still think most Majors will be sold with the basic transmission.

hughbroome2 · Jan 27, 2016

Have you guys heard any news on the new Minor? When will we see it?

Renze · Aug 8, 2016

Have you guys heard any news on the new Minor? When will we see it?

Still heard nothing, but regarding the Minor 50: If you look at a Kioti with the same tire size, youre talking 60hp max from a small, high rpm 1.8 liter turbo engine.

The Minor 50 has Zetors heavy 3.1 liter industrial duty diesel... Which moves it into a higher class, which has 20" front wheels, so that it doesnt look so funny

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