news New Zetor Forterra 120-171 hp !

On Zeme Zivitelka fair, Ceske Budejovice, CZ, Zetor has announced to introduce a new tractor model with 120-171hp. Zetor North America says it is the new Forterra, available from third quarter of 2024. What is clear is that it has a completely new cab, but we will follow what details will be publicized in the next week.



As can be seen, it has a steel sickle above the mudguard, like the Proxima.



This is because the cabs have been placed higher on Crystal and Forterra to improve operator visibility, which left a bigger gap between tire and mudguard at the back, with the previous cab.

Possibly this allows for more room above the wheels to install the more ergonomic hydraulic control levers of the Proxima in the HSX too.

Other noticeable change is the doors are bigger, the B pillar of the cab is moved roughly 20cm back, and the door hinges are different.

Will this new Forterra have a Deutz TCD 4.1 up to 171hp ? Or will the Forterra be available in both 4 and 6 cylinder like Deutz-Fahr ? We will report as soon as more news comes out...

Because of the current price level of the Forterra, ergonomic or technical flaws are not permissible for Zetor, even at basic spec tractors they require to have their ergonomics (placement and logic of the controls, feel, noise, vibration, harshness) spic and span...

Spotted by Forum member twan hag
This message edited with new information 30-08 9:45pm

 

[international]

The Forterra HSX at its introduction, was almost as expensive than the better equipped New Holland T6 series back then. The dealer said that he had never lost a sale based on price before.

I have no idea what the price will be with a ZF transaxle.... i am afraid it will be more expensive, unless Zetor indeed replaces all Forterra production with it so they can buy mass, at higher discount than Crystal Agrpoland used to get...

Off course ZF is making a tailored transmission for Zetor, with 4 speeds instead of five to be able to offer a more cost effective 40kmh base model. (Cheaper than Deutz)

They also said that the HSX would keep a Zetor engine... ZF also offers no alternative for the Forterra Classic, they definately cant beat that price. Either way, if they keep producing the Forterra rear end they need to unify the Classic and the HSX, 30/30 powershuttle HSX and 20/20 synchro shuttle Classic based on the same wheelbase, hoods, 4wd driveshafts, etcetera.

They should have kept the engine zetor as its wet line so repairable we only put a water pump in to or last remaining forterra last week 11000 hours very robust engine by the way we owned a HSX about ten years ago but nobody would drive it and there was loads of quirks it drove us to buy steyr cvx never looked back by the way i hope zetor put in double glazing in the lower half of the front wind screen as does keep noise down in the cab. 4 cylinder seems to be the bench mark now up to almost 200 hp in boost. Had loads of zetors down through the years and said i would buy zetor again once they got more powershifts but have had two deutz engines one a 2015 and another 2016 build fail so have no interest going zetor with a that brand engine.

 

[Renze]

They should have kept the engine zetor

Knowing that the Indian market soon will be Stage V too, i have the feeling that they wont have Deutz forever... Once they have to compete with Sonalika common rail engines on the Indian market, it wont take long before they will have enough production volume to warrant the R&D to put common rail on their own engine and use them in the new European models too...

 

[Joachim]

Well then have fun with the CVX...
I once had one (first series) and the engine died after less than 3,000 hours, and I also find the CVX gear set quite loud in comparison.

The CVX came after a Fendt Xylon 524 (worst Fendt we ever had)... good system idea, but many trouble with. We had two of them, both fails with many time at workshop.

After the engine fail of our CVX we offers them and by a MF 7495 DynaVT and 716 Vario - they was much better then the Xylon or CVX.


We have Deutz engines in a Fendt GHA 395 and a Hardi Alpha VariTrack self propelled sprayer - and no trouble with the Deutz engines.

In front our MF 8480 DynaVT and behind our GHA 395

So what I will say - you can have trouble with all engines. If Deutz will be sooo bad, they wouldnt stay at the market I think.

 

[Renze]

...and I also find the CVX gear set quite loud in comparison.

The peculiar thing about the CVX is that it rocks in place when its parked with the engine running. When it rocks back and forth (a mere centimeter, but it does startle people who havent seen it before) it makes this zing..!-zinggg noise as if it will run away on its own.

Nonetheless, the Steyr CVX outlasts the Vario allmost every time, and is idiot proof: I know a guy who replaced two 411 varios every 5000hrs because grandpa kept ploughing in 2nd range... they didnt like that. Other than that, a Vario lives about 10.000hrs, some 7000 some 13.000 hrs. CVXes can run up to 20.000hrs on a transmission, though you dont get a remanufactured CVT for 12.000 Euro like you get a Vario from Fendt...

So what I will say - you can have trouble with all engines. If Deutz will be sooo bad, they wouldnt stay at the market I think.

Deutz makes a good, lightweight engine for a great price: You just have to respect its limitations, like the Cummins QSB5.9 which could burn up in 8000hrs at 185hp in a 15 ton wheel loader, while it lasted 20.000hrs in similar use at 155hp in a 13 ton wheel loader. Deutz engines have the same issue, meaning, its too light to last in twin turbo configurations, while Deere or FPT engines do last at high power per liter. Off course you will get good hours from a TTCD6.1 at 286hp when its only used for transport and not for a wood chipper, but most tractors arent doing only transport...

Also, the Stage 4 and 5 Forterra engine arent without faults too: i remember DPF and SCR getting deleted to get rid of problems. Youve got to give that to Deutz, they master their aftertreatment technology like no other ! They even offered SCR for agri and DPF for Construction in Stage 3B, which call for two very different injection mappings !

 

[zetorfanpl]

ZETOR HARD HYDRAULIC TESTING

View: https://youtu.be/l2xyCUxqumw?si=7GvDPzEKubFZansw

 

[Joachim]

That are good news and a nice video with some more details.

 

[Renze]

They do need six pots from 160hp onward though... Thats how the market works these days. 4 cylinder 2.65 wheelbase up to 170hp, six cylinder 2.85 wheelbase from 160hp onwards.
Case Puma 260 is still 2.85 wheelbase, where the Optum has 3.06 and the Magnum too. In Eastern Europe a 3 meter wheelbase is going to be most popular in this power bracket. Anyways, a Puma 260 peaks at 300hp while Zetor talks of 250...

 

[Renze]

View attachment 618

And by the way, next year a 250hp tractor, powershift only, but with ISO bus terminal? Especially the T-7300 transaxle with 6 speeds and 4 powershifts, is still quite conservative. Equipping it with isobus as standard, drives up the cost. MF has it on its 3rd tier spec level. Starts with mechanical spools and gear pump, then 2 mechanical spools and 2 electrohydraulic with LS pump, then full EH with LS pump and Isobus.
Unless ZF comes with a TPT25 transmission with 6 powershifts instead of the T-7300, the top spec with full EH and LS should have a CVT or it will sell as poor as Forterra HD and Crystal. The spec package should be balanced

Anyways, after 15 years it appears that Zetor finally understood that they need to deliver dealers the larger tractors they want, in order to sell the volume models Zetor makes profit on.

 

[Joachim]

I think we'll have to wait and see.

The fact is, the path that Zetor is now taking is the path that Zetor already tried with Maxterra. Even back then, third-party engines and ZF transmissions were already under discussion.
Today we know that it would probably have been better to have done it much earlier.
But I still want to wait for the results before judging the new models. Nobody knows yet for sure what will be a series and what will be an option. So it's just a matter of waiting and watching.

 

[Joachim]

Here, the online version of the inserted article:

Zetor readying 170hp four-pot, with a 250hp tractor in development

The Irish Farmers Journal can exclusively reveal that Zetor will soon launch a new four-cylinder range. It is also developing a 190-250hp six pot tractor range.

www3.farmersjournal.ie

 

[Renze]

Today we know that it would probably have been better to have done it much earlier.

We knew it back then as well, when the most prolific dealers quit Zetor .

But I still want to wait for the results before judging the new models. Nobody knows yet for sure what will be a series and what will be an option. So it's just a matter of waiting and watching.

True, the new cab looks promising, four mechanical hydraulic levers and the EH joystick is already a mid level spec, but as a whole package, with the 6 speed powershift with automated range shifts, it is already a better balanced package than the Forterra HSX or HD.

I hope this time they realise that whatever a customer yells, needs to be interpreted in the proper context. When a customer doesnt like the levers of the HSX and yells "others have electrohydraulic controls" it doesnt mean that he will buy a HD. It means that he expects better ergonomics on his next HSX. Customers who want all remote valves electrohydraulic, are customers who expect the 30x15 50kmh ZF powershift or the CVT.

 

[Renze]

So what I will say - you can have trouble with all engines. If Deutz will be sooo bad, they wouldnt stay at the market I think.

Fendt tractors: Common problems and how to fix them - Farmers Weekly

It might be the premium brand of choice for large-scale farms and contracting businesses, but just like any other maker, Fendt’s tractors can suffer the

www.fwi.co.uk

Deutz engines and rebuild... Thats expensive, according to Farmers Weekly. Unlike the smaller 1011 engines, the TCD 6.1 is a sleeved engine (not sure whether wet sleeved like Zetor , John Deere, Sisu, or dry sleeved like Cummins B series, FPT, Mercedes) yet often the entire block gets replaced. FWI speaks of 20.000 Euro, very different money than a rebuild of a Zetor engine..

 

[Joachim]

And?

The article also says:

The system has been modified on later models, so there should be a lower risk for those who have bought a new tractor recently.

We have had some similar trouble with motor in first Case CVX series, with MAN motor in our Fendt 524 (first series), Zetor some time with Proxima engines, VW with there Bi-Turbos in the VW Bus T6, T5 with exhaust system, John Deere with bad injectors in 6000er series

View: https://youtu.be/glvma8PJabI?si=8l6hAvAg8vdDlVgn
, ...
And we have a Deutz in our Hardi Alpha VariTrack, Fendt GHA 395, Fendt 828 and no trouble with these tractor motors.


So, what will I say? Trouble you can find every where.

 

[Renze]

So, what will I say? Trouble you can find every where.

It depends on how expensive trouble gets. I know a self employed contractor (his neighbours kid helps him when in need, otherwise he works alone) he complained to me that the local Fendt dealer had an 826 for trade and didnt call him. Did he not want to sell ?? I told him hes a Favorit 614 driver, an 826 isnt the tractor for him. When the dealer had a 927 he was all over him, willing to sell... i said hes right, a 7.8 liter Deutz at 270hp can meet the expectations you have from your 18.000hr 614....

Most Zetors end up with owners who dont maintain their stuff and would require replacement pistons and liners at some time.. paying 20.000 for a new block instead of a 500 set of liners is quite a bummer...

Next to that, "oh its fixed now" is bullshit. The Deutz just cant deliver the 230+ horsepower for continuous periods. Cummins 6BT5.9 couldnt either. And off course, adding EGR increases cylinder pressure and engine load, which accelerates engine wear. It only made the problem of a too light engine, more prominent. We saw the same thing with the Cummins 6BT5.9 vs QSB5.9, the problem that the 6BT5.9 had, worsened with the QSB to the point that it was swapped for a JD 6068 (which had whole different problems with EGR coolers and head gaskets, but they do run 20 000hrs once the bugs are ironed out)

 

[Joachim]

I don't want to say that there weren't better (more durable) engines in the past. Nor that there are better and worse ones today. But you can get into everyone's shit and if Deutz were as bad as I said, they wouldn't be on the market where they are. You just have to keep an eye on that too. Tha'ts what I meant.

And because of the cost...
- Case CVX 170, had to be converted/sold at a heavy loss
- Xylon (2 pieces), sold too early with heavy losses
Once Sisu and once MAN - two problem children but that's why everything from Sisu is crap or MAN is just nonsense. Likewise all other manufacturers, some more, others less.

I would first like to give the new Forterra a chance to prove itself, it will certainly be tested and then... then we can still talk about quality problems or design defects or be amazed when they run more reliably than expected.

An example:
People constantly tell me (mostly those without a PV battery) that only my battery (Huawei) will last for a short time. What's that supposed to mean? Nobody knows yet, they are too young on the market for that. We (or I) will know (not guess) when my battery fails. Until then, all of this is just conjecture based on assumptions and the little that you know or think you know.
And people tell me how uneconomical it is because of that.
What is always overlooked is why I bought the battery! I see this as an increase in comfort, as a balm for my nerves because of electricity prices. And as that, it's nothing more than a couch, a TV, a car or whatever else brings me joy.


Give the smuggler a chance, he deserves it. At least some points of criticism have apparently been addressed (performance, rear axle, equipment, cabin) and whether the engine holds up or not will be seen when the first ones are running and the first reports come out.

And as far as over 230 hp is concerned - that's still a thing of the future at Zetor , we currently don't have enough data/facts about the new Crystal announced for 2025. Especially not which engine it will ultimately be.

 

[Renze]

I don't want to say that there weren't better (more durable) engines in the past. Nor that there are better and worse ones today. But you can get into everyone's shit and if Deutz were as bad as I said, they wouldn't be on the market where they are. You just have to keep an eye on that too. Tha'ts what I meant.

I know what you mean. I have never said that Deutz is a bad engine, i just know that WHEN a Deutz gives up, it rarely gets an in-frame overhaul, most of the time a new shortblock or longblock gets installed, racking up to 20.000 Euro. Thats quite the departure from the prices of rebuilding a Zetor engine...

And because of the cost...
- Case CVX 170, had to be converted/sold at a heavy loss
- Xylon (2 pieces), sold too early with heavy losses
Once Sisu and once MAN - two problem children but that's why everything from Sisu is crap or MAN is just nonsense. Likewise all other manufacturers, some more, others less.

You just had bad luck with that Sisu. Their only drawback was its fuel consumption, but you rarely hear of reliability issues on a Sisu, my friend buys them at 10.000hrs.

I would first like to give the new Forterra a chance to prove itself, it will certainly be tested and then... then we can still talk about quality problems or design defects or be amazed when they run more reliably than expected.

The new Forterras will have no issues, they dont run at 45hp per liter like the Fendt 828 or 939.

Give the smuggler a chance, he deserves it. At least some points of criticism have apparently been addressed (performance, rear axle, equipment, cabin) and whether the engine holds up or not will be seen when the first ones are running and the first reports come out.

Yes, as said before, they seem to be on the right track this time. They just have to compare to MF and Case in terms of spec levels: Those tractors are bought voluntarily with peoples own money. Its not that a current Zetor owner says what he thinks he wants (but cant afford in the end) but its the spec level that people actually will buy.

And as far as over 230 hp is concerned - that's still a thing of the future at Zetor, we currently don't have enough data/facts about the new Crystal announced for 2025. Especially not which engine it will ultimately be.

The new Case Optum is pushing out 340hp from 6.7 liter... i know FPT has no EGR and therefor has lower cylinder pressure at the same power output, and that the NEF67 block weighs substantially more than the Cummins 6BT5.9 it is based on, but boy oh boy... if that engine lasts 10.000hrs on a wood chipper, it earns my great respect !! So far, there is no engine with 50hp per liter that lasts 5.000hrs in continuous duty...

 

[Joachim]

You just had bad luck with that Sisu. Their only drawback was its fuel consumption, but you rarely hear of reliability issues on a Sisu, my friend buys them at 10.000hrs.

No - that was a series fault, we are not alone with.

 

[Renze]

No - that was a series fault, we are not alone with.

I havent heard about any... many CS, CVT, CVX ran in my area, they still do, but they only have a thirsty reputation, but some run 18.000hrs. It was hit by a car in dense fog, breaking the front axle from the engine block. Otherwise it was still in daily use with a dumptrailer. The contractor just had it resprayed when it was struck

 

[Joachim]

We have number 57, so it was the early series, first models. Much trouble with motor and the new type Carraro axle at this time ago.
Call Gruber Agrar, I think they know this theme from at that time.

I'm not saying that it was generally a bad tractor - but my own experience with the brands CASE-IH, Fendt, MF, Zetor over the last 30 years is simply this: EVERYONE screws up sometimes.
I wanted to express that, nothing more.

 

[Renze]

All right guys, we have some more photos of another prototype. This seems to be a more premium version because i dont see hydraulic levers.

Despite what anyone says, it seems that Zetor gets things done now they free up engineering budget and time to work on the ergonomics, instead of on engines and transmissions. Off course it is a disappointment that they didnt push through the developments of a DSG gearbox and a Common Rail Zetor engine, with which they have experimented for the last 10 years, but realistically, when sales has slumped from 8000 to 2000 tractors a year, tough choices are to be made.

Off course we dont know about pricing. But the ZF gearbox is a better gearbox than NH ElectroCommand (EC doesnt have overlap between the ranges, so theres a power cut at four shift points, where the ZF has one or two overlaps between ranges) So does it have to be cheaper than NH ? No, i think the same price for the 24 speed with manual range shift, versus the 16 speed EC with auto range change is acceptable in the market. The automatic range change 50kmh version compares to New Hollands 8 speed DSG and should be priced accordingly.

For me personally, i would prefer the 6 speed with overlap and manual range shift (which you hardly ever shift in the field) than the 4 speed with no overlap and automatic (no power shift) range shift.

Off course with New Holland you know parts supply stops 20 years after the end of the production run, ZF, Deutz and Zetor have better support, therefor better resale value, so how much higher sales price than New Holland the market will accept, is a question..