news Found Czech info.... (Hot rumor !!)

croc2 · Nov 22, 2004

Well so there we have it then, zetor or more to the point htc are scared of the investment to give us some bigger horse power tractors. Well my next tractors are almost certain not going to Zetors then.

Why should i put money into them if they are not willing to give me and many other people what they want, i know it might be a small market for them, and it might take some time to recoup the investment but hey you need to invest to get returns. Iam going to play with one of the forterras and see what else (HP) wise i can get out of them and keep the relieabilty. As for the gearbox how much would it cost to build a new one, or even if they bought ZTS they would then have a box that would take the horse power, I know its not powershift or anything fancy but its a start. The 10245 i have has been great gearbox wise, sometimes a bit slow but hey at least it takes the power. And also they would have the higher horse power tractors that i would buy!!!!!!.

Renze · Nov 22, 2004

Hmm William so what you are doing, is actually field testing for Zetor ??

Yes, the insider i spoke, said the same thing to the HTC guys when asked... Others are taking that market share, while Zetor is focusing on sales volume.... but for what ?? If customers have to find a different brand because Zetor doesn't offer any big tractors they need, they buy the big tractors from another brand, and within a few years the Zetors will be replaced as well because they like uniformity in their fleet... That will be the end for the current sales numbers.....

???

... I got the idea that HTC is getting the insight that they HAVE to make a move though... But i expect they have been working on 160 hp forterras anyways....

markku · Nov 23, 2004

William,

You are in right. I bought 2 hand ZTS last spring and I have to buy one new tractor next year. I am really concidering what tractor it will be. Least I need 140 hp or more....... I have 2 choises John Deere or Cas Crystal. If I buy 6620 SE John Deere it means i will propably buy all other tractors from Deere too....... There will be missing 4 Zetor from marketing.

This is not much. But if everyone else do the same ???

Yes tractors will be bigger and bigger each year. In 140 to 180 hp category will be markets in future (is allready). This is category where ZTS was strong in Finland. There were lots of contractor who did use these tractor, but they use other tractors now and I think they will not change back to Zetors

This is bad for Zetor. I undertand these are not tractor where Zetor factory "is best" but they must offer bigger tractors too if they want to keep their customers 69)

What do you think folks?

hogi · Nov 23, 2004

Markku,

why you would change all your tractors to JD if you buy one John Deere? It thing that the combination of couple of brands would be the best alternative.

I strongly agree with you that Zetor should develop bigger (would it be UR V-series?) tractors. As soon as this new 6-cyl is lanched, we will sell our ZTS and buy new one.

Btw. what nick-name do you Markku use in finnish sites? Cosmic_Cowboy?

Renze · Nov 24, 2004

Hey guys, i have the exact translation of the agroweb article.

I got an email from an insider that follows this forum from a distance. He has a friend that speaks Czech, who translated this for us:

=== Before 1989 and following years. Zetor had 50-60% of Czech market, in 50-110hp they had 90%. Foreign makes were not competitive.
In 2003 Zetor sold 176 tractors in Czech market = 26%, making them No1, J.Deere was No2.
In 2003 they sold 69 tractors to Slovakia, plan to sell 80 in 2004.
Zetor did not have a good finance or leasing plan, the competition offered better deals.

Major. Still in production due to customer demand, the simplest range, in production over 20 years. The production will stop in 2005. Best selling points are :- no electrics, good price and large cab. Worst point, no front axle suspension. Most are sold as 4 x 4.

Proxima. Will replace Super by June. Engines from Proxima, with turbo. The old Super engine did not meet emission limits. Proxima with 3 cyl engine available shortly. In near future new model 9441, (90hp) will be available with new gearbox. The Proxima range is for the customer that wants a cheaper tractor than a Fortera. It has wet brakes on both axles, the front axle is Carraro with brakes integrated into it. The price is 750,000 Czk plus v.a.t.

Fortera. The highest model, the 11441 is the best selling model. Within 2 years a new 160hp 6 cylinder Zetor engine will replace the Italian Same one that is used in the 11741. ===

The good news : Zetor IS making work of the UR3 6 cylinder engine !
The bad news: We'll have to wait for 2006 to see them.

The last sentence gives no solution about whether this engine is going to be mounted in a Forterra , or in a new range of tractors... I think that means that the HTC people themself, are not sure what they want to do......

They cant wait for 2006 to buy the six cylinder engines. If tehy cant make it so quickly with the six, they need to power up that 4 cylinder 11441 to 140 hp NOW !!!

I think if HTC cannot get the sales volumes to make it profitable, they should take over the former ZTS works, and discontinue the 6.8 liter UR2 engine to replace it with the new UR3 engine, so they can sell them to Ursus as well... That will give a lot more sales volume for their engine. Next to that, they are able to use the UR4 rear axle and front axle, in a new UR5 range up to 200 hp. I suppose the UR4 7.3 long stroke engine is able to take 280 hp, if updated to the current level of metallurgy...

hogi · Nov 24, 2004

The price for proxima 8441 is 750,000 Czk plus v.a.t.. So it is approximately 24200 euros + VAT. I wonder, street price for 8441 proxima in Finland is only 22200 + VAT. And it includes more accessories than other ones.

markku · Nov 26, 2004

Hogi,

No, Im not Cowboy

2 marks combination? No, I dont think so, because then I have to keep 2* spareparts on the shelf. 2* service program. 2* different oils. 2* more work to learn techical works and using those tactors.

Example now we have spareparts from injection pump, hydraulic pumps, pistons, clutch etc. on the shelf. And some own sparepart manufacturing. So, IF something goes broken we can repair Zetor quickly! (waiting to get use those spareparts.....) (should not say that :-x ) If I have 2 different tractors this is more complicate.

Have a nice day!

P.S. I hope 160 hp range comes out soon! It seems there will be 1 nice 160hp ZTS for sale

treaney · Nov 29, 2004

So, IF something goes broken we can repair Zetor quickly!

Hi Markku,

Do you think that it will be feasible (both ecconomically and technically) for you to maintain the John Deere's as easily as you maintain the Zetor's/ZTS's?

I'm curious to know as I'm assuming that the JD's would require special tooling/equipment to do the maintenance. Then again maybe my assumption is wrong????

TomZ
Tom

markku · Nov 29, 2004

You are right that JD is certain more expensive to make service and repairs. But SE edition and older 6000 series tractor besed on same techics and there is "difficult" electricity only for engine and that is made by Bosch. So electricity should not be the problem. But how is the mechanically contruction?????????

As strong as Zetors/Zts has???? I doubt that...........

treaney · Nov 29, 2004

Markku,

I would have thought that JD's American and Mannheim designs would be at least as strong as Zetor 's.

I'm curious to know why you - as a tractor professional - go for JD over competitors such as an Ago brand (Fendt, Valtra, MF), an SDF brand (Same Deutz Fahr Lamboghini), CASE-IH, NH, McCormick, Claas/Renault.....
Is it the resale value of the JD, reliability, local dealer support....or what?

A recent Classic Tractor review pitted a JD against 3 rivals and the JD won so there must be something to them.

TomZ
Tom

markku · Nov 29, 2004

This is my OPINION. Anybody should not get angry of this

Fendt is too expensive. I cant imagenate any benefit what Fendt could give me for pay his price back. (On of the best tractor anyway)

MF has too much big and expensive repairs. We have allways had MF:s on our farm and we have still 2 MF:s But those are older ones. One of the most comfortable tractor since 3000 series and very "handy". The England made MF:s were strong workers and you could trust them.

France made are unfortunately different ones

Same, Lamborghini etch. are unfortunately toy tarctors

Those are not for heavy works at all. I think these are best for cattle farmers who makes light work (feeding etch) with them. Bigger models we dont have much experience here in finland. Those are sold only some couples here

About D-F i am considering, some contractors has been driven 30000 hours

but some users had plenty of problems ??? Many problems seemed to come out when its cold weather ???

Older Valmet were deep from ..s Latest Mega and Mezzo series were (there is still some selected models in marketing) strong and economy tractors. Newer are nice for eyes, but price is higher. If there is same price Valtra and JD SE I think you get more for you moneys if you take a JD.

Mega and Mezzo Valtras are nowdays only solution if you do forestry works.

And last but not least.......

Im not tractor expert 69) at all.....

treaney · Nov 30, 2004

Markku,

Fendt is too expensive. I cant imagenate any benefit what Fendt could give me for pay his price back. (On of the best tractor anyway)

Most expensive but most technologically advanced. A contractor near me runs a fleet of 6 of them and some have clocked over 20,000+ hours. He buys them second hand though!

MF has too much big and expensive repairs. We have allways had MF:s on our farm and we have still 2 MF:s But those are older ones. One of the most comfortable tractor since 3000 series and very "handy". The England made MF:s were strong workers and you could trust them. France made are unfortunately different ones

Beauvais made MF suffered major quality problems...cabs. I wasn't aware that newer MF's had big expensive repairs. My 1959 MF 35 costs me very, very little.

Same, Lamborghini etch. are unfortunately toy tarctors Those are not for heavy works at all. I think these are best for cattle farmers who makes light work (feeding etch) with them. Bigger models we dont have much experience here in finland. Those are sold only some couples here

I don't have any expeirence with these and don't see many in Ireland.

About D-F i am considering, some contractors has been driven 30000 hours but some users had plenty of problems ??? Many problems seemed to come out when its cold weather ???

Don't foget that Fendt are using Deutz engines now so they must be good. The Deutz Agrotron tractor looks the job.

Older Valmet were deep from ..s

I don't understand this????

Latest Mega and Mezzo series were (there is still some selected models in marketing) strong and economy tractors. Newer are nice for eyes, but price is higher. If there is same price Valtra and JD SE I think you get more for you moneys if you take a JD. Mega and Mezzo Valtras are nowdays only solution if you do forestry works.[/]

Valtra's became very popular in Ireland in the late 1990's. There was a 100HP model (I forget name/model) that was very popular second hand. Much confusion now in the market since Agco now owns Valtra, MF and Fendt. What should you buy??
If they survive the forest, they must be tough.

And last but not least....... Im not tractor expert 69) at all.....

...you are being too modest

bartxm99 · Nov 30, 2004

Hy all
I always hear people talking about fendt tractors
with 30000-35000 h.
We own 2 fendts a 203 and a260v.
The 203 has 6000 H. and the engine is not holding up to good,i don't think it will get to 8000 or 9000.
I think you can run a tractor forever if you put a lot off money in it.
Where i workt i use to drive a fendt 380 gth it had 9000 H. with 2 deutz engines and a total rebuilt gearbox.
So don't tell me about 20000 H. or more with low cost.

crystalman · Nov 30, 2004

I think any tractor will do high hours if you use it for 18 hours a day and service it regularly,it's the stopping and starting that wears them out!. I hope MF get more Fendt and Valtra bits in them (The 4000 series are made by Valtra) but if F&V get more MF bits in them they will not be nearly as good.

treaney · Dec 1, 2004

Hy all
I always hear people talking about fendt tractors
with 30000-35000 h.
We own 2 fendts a 203 and a260v.
The 203 has 6000 H. and the engine is not holding up to good,i don't think it will get to 8000 or 9000.
I think you can run a tractor forever if you put a lot off money in it.
Where i workt i use to drive a fendt 380 gth it had 9000 H. with 2 deutz engines and a total rebuilt gearbox.
So don't tell me about 20000 H. or more with low cost.

Hi Bart,

The Fendt's that my contractor operates are 612 and bigger. I think that these have MAN engines. The clock on one had 22,000 hours without the engine being touched or any money being spent other than routine maintenance.

Then again Renze once mentioned some Zetor Crystal engines used in a water pumping job that ran 24/7 with 50,000 hours on them that were only stopped for maintenance.

So Crystalman's comment in the next post must be correct - it it the stopping and starting that causes the wear.

TomZ
Tom

Renze · Dec 1, 2004

hey hoo !!

That was a Leyland/Nuffield or whatever, that ran 45.000 hrs on a water pump.... The story isn't confirmed though...

I've heard of 17.000 hrs of a Crystal engine in an Ursus .
Our Ursus C-385 A (Zetor 8001 engine) did about 14.800 hrs before it ceised.

My brother's 6718 has done 10.080 hrs and doesn't use a droplet of oil .

About Fendts, ask my brother how much money you need to pump into them to achieve those 20.000 hrs... Just mention the word "head gasket" and MWM B series engines in one phrase...

(he drives Fendt at a contractor a lot...)

Yes some can make it... many not.

croc2 · Dec 11, 2004

Hi Renze,

Well have had intresting time lately as when we were tweaking one of my 11441s we thought we would push it a bit so we opened it up some more and we had 145 hp at the flywheel and put it too work for a couple off days to see what would happen. We did have a bigger intercooler made but was in hurry so didnt put it on.

Big mistake as you can imagine as it went bang, well not so much bang but bang,bang,bang and so on. Ripped it all apart and no3 piston had nice hole in it, so we are now in the process of putting it back together after having it all checked over. We have put the intercooler on an put a fan on the front of it which blows air though it as well, and are going to adjust it to 140hp or thereabouts and see what happens then.

Do you know much about these same engines in the 11741, are they any good. I am thinking about 2 of them in the new year but dont know what same tractors they have been in. What hp do you think they could be pushed to??????.

crystalman · Dec 12, 2004

What about spraying a mist of water over the surface of the intercooler like the Subaru Rally cars.It could be made to only spray when the temperature reaches a certain point.

croc2 · Dec 12, 2004

Hi crystalman,

Well what a intresting idea that is, not thought of anything like that, will have to look at that thought somewhat me thinks.

It was only lazyness and the fact i needed the bloody tractor that we didnt get round to putting the intercooler on in the firrst place however the damage was not too bad so not cost too much. I have just about made my mind up that i will try a same powered 11741 to see what they are like and see how much they can be tweeked to, ether that or i will just have a couple more MFs.

Hows things up north ok i hope.

Renze · Dec 13, 2004

William, which head gasket are you using ?
the 1.2 or the 1.5 mm ?? ig you change, take teh 1.5 because it will lower the compression ratio a few % (maybe 10% ??)

the water mist is a good idea for the thermal load, though i think lowering the compression ratio is first priority to lower the mechanical load also....

I REALLY think you need to lower the compression or it will bend the crankshaft... there are several ways to do this, maybe you can lathe them down ?? but that will disturb the swirl in the combustion chamber in the piston.... anyways, lower comrpession is a MUST !!!! to make this reliable at 145 hp...

I dont know how to do this, but maybe you can order custom made pistons from Zetor directly ??
I am sure they will be glad to help you with it, if they get first hadn practical testing !!!

The 11741 SAme engine is electronically controlled. YOU cant change much, only someone with a laptop computer plugged in.
These 6 liter engines run up to 193 hp but Same is changeing to DEutz 7.1 liter engines for the +150 hp tractors. i dont know the differences in strength, betwwen the version in the 11741 and the big Same's...

Next to that, expect a 30% lower resale value for one with a Same engine in it. I know a 11641 being for sale for about a year, they advertise it a lot but nobody wants it

alan · Dec 13, 2004

The Same engined 11741 can be tweaked as easily as any other Zetor by adjusting the max fuel screw! The Same 1000.6WT as fitted to the 11741 would be OK up to 150hp without a intercooler & probally 200+hp with a intercooler.

groaf · Dec 14, 2004

we have a new 11741, and have standard 135 hp. we are customworker, when he have to little hp the can raise it up to 150 or more hp with a laptop.

alan · Dec 14, 2004

You do not need a laptop to increase power on the Same 1000.6 electrically governed engine as fitted to the 11741

groaf · Dec 15, 2004

if they not use a laptop, how incrase him than.

Renze · Dec 15, 2004

Hey Willam,

Zetor PDC (Parts Distribution Center) sells new Crystal engines... have you thought of a conversion with a 140 hp UR2 six pot ??

http://www.zetorpdc.cz/article5.php?nLang=2&nDepartment=5&nLine=21400

Or maybe: 4 cylinder 4.8 liter UR4 turbo intercooler: Standard 125 hp but tune-able to 150 ??
http://www.zetorpdc.cz/article5.php?nLang=2&nDepartment=5&nLine=21500

I suppose the 7.3 UR4 is a bit big...

croc2 · Dec 20, 2004

Well hi all,

We now have a 11441 which is pulling 140hp with lower compression , big intercooler and a big fan pushing more air through the cooler. I have also asked to have a demo off a 11741 when they have one.

As for the thought of putting a ur2 6 pot engine in that might be a intresting thought. I might have a 16245 if the price is right which could be a good tool.

Anyhow will keep you all informed about how we get on with the 11441, have a good xmas and new year everyone.

Renze · Dec 20, 2004

Hey Willam,

How have you lowered the compression ratio ??
Did you lathe down the top of the piston, or did you get a specialised machine shop enlarge the swirl chamber in the piston top??

What is the compression ratio now ?? I'm very curious about your modifications ..

markku · Dec 21, 2004

16245 is good tool, but its too slow if you are mowing earth long distances

It travel only about 30 km/hour or something). There is built traffic versions in Finland (14245 and 16245 ZTS) and those max speed is about 50 km/hour. Im too looking if i can find decent look tractor like that in price rance 17000 to 25000 euros.

I bought at last May 14245 (160hp) and its been good choice. It was doing 2 bigg earth mowing job last summer and some agricultural contracting. Now it is getting its winter holiday, least to end of February. The best thing is the Martin diesel 6 pot engine. I love that torgue it has!

treaney · Dec 21, 2004

Markku,

Your ZTS 14245 sounds like quite a beast!

Got any photos or web link?

What sort of weight will it pull (trailer/load)?

TomZ
Tom

markku · Dec 31, 2004

Yes, I dont have anything bad to say. I think 10 to 12 m^3 earth mowing trailer would be optimiced. I have only 6 to 8 m^3 trailer and it is nothing behind that tractor. I will build new trailer when have time for that.

Im going to buy a new harrow for spring works but im wondering what would be right size. 7.5 m or 8 m harrow...... vderstad, potila or multiva...... I think i must look for second hand harrow.... New are quite expensive and farming isnt "best business" here nowdays. But i need good harrow, because im doing all field works alone ???

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