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Tractorworld Show
- Thread starter alan
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- Renze
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- 1976 5718
1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOf83t1xiV0
Lets see if they get some area coverage back, in the USA with the new Major... How is it received on the Lamma show lately ?
Lets see if they get some area coverage back, in the USA with the new Major... How is it received on the Lamma show lately ?
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
Its good to hear that, how does the price compare to a similar light duty tractor of the big three, e.g. Deere 5e, MF 2600 and NH TD ?
And are they competing against these big 3, or just against a Proxima ?
In the USA zetor never grew beyond being a price fighter, just offering more beef for the buck than the competition which was their unique selling point. Which is why they lost so much the past decade, when prices increased because privatisation of Czechoslovakian economy.
If they are sold to old time 7245 buyers, there will be disappointment because it isnt as heavy duty as the old Major... It can do just as much as any other economy tractor these days, but not what the classic Major could.. Dealers need to give good advice to customers when they want to trade a 7245 with Allied 594 loader for a Major 80, its going to be a disappointment after a couple of thousand hours...
If dealers make sure potential customers have the right expectations from the product before choosing between a basic Proxima or a Major, this can be sustainable market share...
And are they competing against these big 3, or just against a Proxima ?
In the USA zetor never grew beyond being a price fighter, just offering more beef for the buck than the competition which was their unique selling point. Which is why they lost so much the past decade, when prices increased because privatisation of Czechoslovakian economy.
If they are sold to old time 7245 buyers, there will be disappointment because it isnt as heavy duty as the old Major... It can do just as much as any other economy tractor these days, but not what the classic Major could.. Dealers need to give good advice to customers when they want to trade a 7245 with Allied 594 loader for a Major 80, its going to be a disappointment after a couple of thousand hours...
If dealers make sure potential customers have the right expectations from the product before choosing between a basic Proxima or a Major, this can be sustainable market share...
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- barlowszetor
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
Here is what i mean:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/zetor -century-branson/272106-zetor-4341-a.html
That describes how the old Major is known "it pulls more than any of the competition" The 2012 Major uses a light duty rear end, very much alike the competition, which the old Major used to stand out from... there are horses for courses, i wouldnt put a Major 80 in front of the 10m3 slurry tank which we did with the 5245...
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/zetor -century-branson/272106-zetor-4341-a.html
That describes how the old Major is known "it pulls more than any of the competition" The 2012 Major uses a light duty rear end, very much alike the competition, which the old Major used to stand out from... there are horses for courses, i wouldnt put a Major 80 in front of the 10m3 slurry tank which we did with the 5245...
Pictures on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=495939027108112&set=a.495939020441446.1073741826.290672614301422&type=1&theater#!/media/set/?set=a.495939020441446.1073741826.290672614301422&type=1
Thanks to all who visited us at Tractorworld, Visitors from Cornwall, Sussex, Scotland & Ireland!
1946 to present day!
Thanks to all who visited us at Tractorworld, Visitors from Cornwall, Sussex, Scotland & Ireland!
1946 to present day!
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
Very nice !! I love that beautifully restored 3045...
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The 3045 was actually on a welsh vintage club stand at tractor world, the owner Richard Thomas has done a fantastic job restoring it over the last few years. We supplied all his parts for the restoration.....in fact at the show he purchased a original enamel exhaust off us to finish the job off. His next project is a 4718, which will look fantastic if he does the same detail as the 3045. Our 3545 was on show, which also grabbed alot of attention. Next up for us is to finish the restoration of our 4011, which is the very first zetor we sold back in 1966. Once that is finished we have a big project to tackle........a Super P!!
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
I just came home from the Rietman brothers open house, this year celebrating the 75 year anniversary of their company.
They had a bunch of their Zetors on display, also a 5545, 25A, 25K, a row of 20-30-4011 and a 3013. When we walked in there, they first wanted our opinion on the new Major, which was just trucked in earlier this week, its the first in Holland (yes, the past 10 years Rietman has allways been the first to show, or sell the newest Zetor model in Holland) Anyways we both said that, if we see how Proximas in our area are abused (last week my brother saw a 6441 driving through the village main street with a 28m3 manure tank) this Carraro rear end will quit sooner than you think: just like any other light duty tractor on the market.
This tractor certainly has a place in the market (not just in Poland where there is a lot of competition in this market segment) but this is not a real Zetor in terms of parts origin, but neither in terms of what people have come to expect from the UR1 based Zetors.
The salesmen said they'd like to see bigger rear tires, 30" was a bit small for 80hp: I replied i've checked the Carraro spec sheets online, and they dont approve any bigger tires due to the allowed rear axle output torque..
It has its place in the market at golf courses, grounds maintenance, horse riding schools and farms that only make hay. Its not something to do heavy tillage or manure spreading with, though people are used of old Zetors that if the pin fits through the tow eye, the tractor can handle the task: But only the Proxima can provide that
I would have put the 50-60-70hp three cylinders in front of this Carraro rear end and call it Minor, 60-70-80hp four cylinders with this basic cab, in front of the old UR1 gearbox and call THAT a Major, and rebrand the basic 12/12 proxima with slant gears and full synchromesh as Super, to distinguish it from the Proxima Plus and Power. Then all expectations one may have from past experiences with a certain model name, will be met
I am not against the fact that they want a share of the light duty budget market (they cant build the old model heavy duty Major for the money they did 20 years ago) because CNH, Deere, MF are all competing in this market, while this market segment is especially popular in their main market Poland because of the high EU agricultural deveopment subsidies on new tractors. But Zetor has allways been the budget tractor that outclassed anything else in terms of beef for the money. I just think its a wrong decision to dub it Major when its a tractor in a whole different market segment.
Anyways, enough of this rant. I dont have to eat from this fodder bin
On the positve side: In real life, it does look a LOT better than the prototype on the fair in Poland earlier on...
About the cab, its quite ok for what you'd expect from a budget tractor
They had a bunch of their Zetors on display, also a 5545, 25A, 25K, a row of 20-30-4011 and a 3013. When we walked in there, they first wanted our opinion on the new Major, which was just trucked in earlier this week, its the first in Holland (yes, the past 10 years Rietman has allways been the first to show, or sell the newest Zetor model in Holland) Anyways we both said that, if we see how Proximas in our area are abused (last week my brother saw a 6441 driving through the village main street with a 28m3 manure tank) this Carraro rear end will quit sooner than you think: just like any other light duty tractor on the market.
This tractor certainly has a place in the market (not just in Poland where there is a lot of competition in this market segment) but this is not a real Zetor in terms of parts origin, but neither in terms of what people have come to expect from the UR1 based Zetors.
The salesmen said they'd like to see bigger rear tires, 30" was a bit small for 80hp: I replied i've checked the Carraro spec sheets online, and they dont approve any bigger tires due to the allowed rear axle output torque..
It has its place in the market at golf courses, grounds maintenance, horse riding schools and farms that only make hay. Its not something to do heavy tillage or manure spreading with, though people are used of old Zetors that if the pin fits through the tow eye, the tractor can handle the task: But only the Proxima can provide that
I would have put the 50-60-70hp three cylinders in front of this Carraro rear end and call it Minor, 60-70-80hp four cylinders with this basic cab, in front of the old UR1 gearbox and call THAT a Major, and rebrand the basic 12/12 proxima with slant gears and full synchromesh as Super, to distinguish it from the Proxima Plus and Power. Then all expectations one may have from past experiences with a certain model name, will be met
I am not against the fact that they want a share of the light duty budget market (they cant build the old model heavy duty Major for the money they did 20 years ago) because CNH, Deere, MF are all competing in this market, while this market segment is especially popular in their main market Poland because of the high EU agricultural deveopment subsidies on new tractors. But Zetor has allways been the budget tractor that outclassed anything else in terms of beef for the money. I just think its a wrong decision to dub it Major when its a tractor in a whole different market segment.
Anyways, enough of this rant. I dont have to eat from this fodder bin
On the positve side: In real life, it does look a LOT better than the prototype on the fair in Poland earlier on...
About the cab, its quite ok for what you'd expect from a budget tractor
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- Donny2stroke
i am having the exact same feeling as you RENZE, zetors have been very underrated tractors in last few decades and just as they seem to be gaining economical momentum and exposure, they seem to be going with the tide that everyone else is surfing, instead of staying firm to their design philosophies which has slowly gained them respect. im guessing that they are using the carraro T5.5 transmission according to your tire specs and input HP. have no personal experience with this transaxle but tractors that have used carraro transmissions in general do not have the best reputation. on the other hand, compared to its competition using the same transaxle, it will still be competitively priced.
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
The JD 5000 series had a bad reputation here. It disappointed a lot of Deere users. Thats why they re introduced a Mannheim built 5R series.
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- Donny2stroke
The 5R is a good tractor range, have you heard of gimma built transmissions at all? whats your opinion on them?
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
Gima you mean. The joint venture between Renault (now Claas) and MF to build the Dynashift for use in both tractor brands. Yes nothing wrong with them... But they arent going to sell them to others. MF already sued Claas because they thought Claas had no rights in Gima after they took over Renault, but the court judged that MF should keep the deal with Renault even after Claas bought them.
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- Donny2stroke
interesting, didnt know that they were originally the property of MF but have heard a few isolated problems with the bell springs on the forward/reverse clutch packs breaking in higher HP tractors. I really like the idea of the double clutch transmissions in the new deeres, but again, cant comment on them first hand
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
Me neither, but the concept of automated shifting is about 10 years old in heavy trucks. In principle, a DSG is just a two step powershift, just the gear ratios can be chosen mechanically while the other powershift stage is engaged. Zetors system partner Norgren has been supplying Scania with controllers and actuators for transmission automation ever since the beginning, so Zetor could get 10 years of experience with automated shifting from Norgren, giving them a head start over the competition. If you can automate the gear changes, you're 90% done with the development, as alternating between the two clutches for odd and even gears, isnt such a big thing if you have the right gearwheels engaged on time.
As far as i know, the current Zetor powershift is reducing three times, so if they left that out, it would get only 70% of the input torque on the 5 speed transmission, allowing for 42% more torque. 136hp x 142% is 193hp, and if they put in an overdrive 5th, they would gain another 42% which means 277hp !! With just existing gearwheel combinations from the Forterra transmission. I have no idea what effect this higher gearspeed would have on the overall efficiency, and if the fatigue resistance of the gearwheels is enough to take DOUBLE the revolutions in an average transmission life of 15.000hrs, but i think DSG has a future. ZF is already introducing DSG truck transmissions, and most European auto manufacturers already have one...
Just MF had a very bad variant of automated gear changes in the A-B transmission, the shift forks were so thin that they'd either bend and jam, or break and rip some teeth off the gearwheels. But serious fatigue testing will solve that (just dont tell the welder or machinist that the shift fork hes making, will be tested)
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Yes, i have a DSG in my car and it seems to work really well without any hesitation or drop in thrust when shifting. of course im not loading it nearly as much as you would a tractor but it seems like an elegant solution to complex "vario" or powrshift transmissions. of course you are correct in saying that the mechatronics unit must be correctly programmed or else the whole system will perform poorly. of course with the higher shaft and gear speeds the transmission is going to get hotter, so a good cooling unit will be important to keep temps in check. shaft bearings would also have to get beefed up correspondingly, as for the gears themselves i dont think you would have to strengthen them too much as long as you keep the temps down. correct me if im wrong but higher speed "rpm" transmissions generally reduce torsional moments hence why 1000rpm PTO were introduced?
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
In 1978 Zetor introduced turbocharging on the 8045 and 12045 creating the 10045 and 16045. In the 16045 the max input torque of the tranny was exceeded so Zetor threw out the 3rd gear and used a different combination of layshaft gears with 30% more speed, so the 1st and 2nd gear would run 30% faster, and the 4th would in the new arrangement become the 3rd. Ford did the same trick in the TW series, making the old Basildon gearbox capable of 185hp TW35 power.
If the higher rpm setup needs gearbox coolers, its better to widen the gearwheels at lower rpm because transmission heat means drag losses. Anyways, i lack experience with gear transmissions to judge if this is entirely feasible, but they CAN get 193hp from the Forterra transmission when doing the same trick as on the 16045 transmission, and make a new gear combination as 5th gear overdrive, like they did on the 40kmh 16145. Then if they add a 4th powershift step (also overdrive) they can cover the whole market of their existing clientele for the next decade.
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