news Found Czech info.... (Hot rumor !!)

gw · Nov 16, 2004

Hey, Im saying electronics not a (pardon the pun) 'super' computer. Computers and muck/moisture dont go together. But all i would like to see is some mods .Like getting rid of the chunky spool conrtols on the forterra. The ZF tranny sounds good. And i belive the introduction of some understandable electronics could potentially reduce the price, perhaps.???

Renze · Nov 16, 2004

Yes i can agree on that, the Forterra needs a better operation of the spool valves, the bowden cable controls look like they are just thrown in somewhere there...

A simple electric control, a switch and a relay operated valve, would be a good idea though... as long as i can see which wire goes to where, i can agree on using this electrics..

This is what ZF offers: i suppose the input torque on their heaviest one, is a bit low in relation to the mentioned power: Even an old 18345 gets to 835 Nm...

...I suppose the T 570 series of transmissions, are the ones from Steyr.

ZF products[/]

croc2 · Nov 16, 2004

Hi Guys,

Just thought i might put my thoughts on the table as well,

1st which would be more difficult to do 1 extra main gear or one extra t/m gear as one or the other would be great.

2nd, Get rid of these supid spool valve levers and give me nice console with nice levers that dont look like a AFTER THOUGHT.

3rd, Short out the paint work so it withstands a steam cleaner better and does not flake OFF.

4th, Heated rear mirrors and back window should be standard along with aircon or no cost options!!!

Apart from these grumbles i am very happy with my forterras, still nothing to report but the massey has been to the doctors this week as the front axle diff started banging when turning sharp when on the road, as some jobs we are doing means pulling up sharp ramps and turning on to roads when fully loaded. Does nothing for my tyres mind.

P.S GW whats up with the dash on them, mind you its a bit hard to see sometimes in bright sunlight, i have no complaints.

Renze, Dont want anymore electrics than now really apart from perhaps the above spool valves.

Renze · Nov 17, 2004

William,

1st which would be more difficult to do 1 extra main gear or one extra t/m gear as one or the other would be great.

what do you mean by t/m gear ??

The Polish built Crystal 230 (with ZF tranny and axles and Deutz engine, a license of the Deutz AT 235) is only 17.000 Euro cheaper than the DF 235. (DF AT 230 is 120.000 Euro)

Would the Deutz 1013 engine be so expensive, or the transmission ?

I think that Deere's powerquad and Deutz AT with the ZF 4 speed, and the MF dynashift transmissions are most popular in the market, nowdays.. The CVT didn't really catch on as expected...

fs · Nov 17, 2004

what zetor needs is to get tractors in the pipleline. in n. ameria it hard to find any on the lots. People are getting tired of the story, they are coming. Dealers need a good supply of tractors. If you can supply tractors, how about parts is needed.

Renze · Nov 17, 2004

Yes, i know about that... In North America, teh importer AmJawa sees its contract ending, and they are not getting a new contract...
HTC is taking out another middle man, this would enable them to sell Zetors at the same price level, to even up with the higher steel prices.
Off course an ending contract of a supplier doesn't motivate these people.... Anyways they'll be back soon.

About transmissions:

Deutz Agrotron 235 with ZF 4 speed and 7.1 liter Deutz BFM 1013 engine: 121.613 Euro
Crystal 230 (exactly the same, license built also with Deutz BFM 1013 engine): 104.343 euro
Renault/Claas Ares 926 (Deutz BFM 1013 engine

109.191
Though the Claas has an 18/8 full powershift. I believe from Funk ??
Case IH MX 230 Magnum: 105.200 euro.... Also full powershift.
i believe these full powershift transmissions have a better reputation than the ZF 4 speed, as the ZF had many startup problems...
However, the Funk is probably cheaper, though it cannot work without electronics... Next to that, a full powershift can be fun, but there is no NEED for it..

I guess Zetors best bet would be to invest in a 5 or 6 step powershift with powershuttle, combined with 4 main gears and an optional crawl gear... That could be offered cheap enough to be competitive, but has enough technology to run with the big dogs.

gw · Nov 17, 2004

About the dash. it is hard to see in sunlight so perhaps adjustable. and perhaps a digital read out of forward speed pto speed. which i didnt used to have. Not too silly electrics. Or an option at least.

croc2 · Nov 17, 2004

Renze,

What i ment to say was a powershift gear 4 rather than 3 steps.

Anyway what tractor company is really going to sell Zetor a powershift gearbox (none i think), so what zetor need to do is get their fingers out and design their own or just make a new version of what they have with 1 more step. If like you have said there is a 160hp 6 pot coming out in 2006 then they must have the money to sort the box out. I mean would you buy a 160hp tractor with the same box as whats in my forterras i dont think so!!!.

Has nobody else have an issue with paint work on their Zetors then, or am i the only one running new forterras here??

markku · Nov 18, 2004

Yes, problems with painting, but older Zetors. Least to 9540 models Zetors had bad painting (i dont have experience about newer models). Cabin frame is main problem.

Weard... ZTS has lots of better painting... Why? Both (cabin frames) are made in slovakian ???

Who knows are they made in same factory? If they are why the differns ???

Renze · Nov 21, 2004

enough speculations:

===Insiders told me, HTC is telling that Zetor (or the HTC organisation, other subsidiaries) have the know-how and the facilities to build market conform big tractors... but is afraid to invest in it, they dont know if it is going to pay...===

Well i agree with William, a 160 hp forterra with just 3 powershift steps is no good investment... In the Forterra range, they shouldn't invest at all, unless if it was a 120 and 135 hp 4 cyl based on the existing 11441. Those will be cheap enough to even up for the technologically poor transmission in this power range.

If they invest, they have to invest in a new unified range, that covers a wide power band, 130 to 200 hp or even wider... to spread cost over a big market segment. ???

croc2 · Nov 22, 2004

Well so there we have it then, zetor or more to the point htc are scared of the investment to give us some bigger horse power tractors. Well my next tractors are almost certain not going to Zetors then.

Why should i put money into them if they are not willing to give me and many other people what they want, i know it might be a small market for them, and it might take some time to recoup the investment but hey you need to invest to get returns. Iam going to play with one of the forterras and see what else (HP) wise i can get out of them and keep the relieabilty. As for the gearbox how much would it cost to build a new one, or even if they bought ZTS they would then have a box that would take the horse power, I know its not powershift or anything fancy but its a start. The 10245 i have has been great gearbox wise, sometimes a bit slow but hey at least it takes the power. And also they would have the higher horse power tractors that i would buy!!!!!!.

Renze · Nov 22, 2004

Hmm William so what you are doing, is actually field testing for Zetor ??

Yes, the insider i spoke, said the same thing to the HTC guys when asked... Others are taking that market share, while Zetor is focusing on sales volume.... but for what ?? If customers have to find a different brand because Zetor doesn't offer any big tractors they need, they buy the big tractors from another brand, and within a few years the Zetors will be replaced as well because they like uniformity in their fleet... That will be the end for the current sales numbers.....

???

... I got the idea that HTC is getting the insight that they HAVE to make a move though... But i expect they have been working on 160 hp forterras anyways....

markku · Nov 23, 2004

William,

You are in right. I bought 2 hand ZTS last spring and I have to buy one new tractor next year. I am really concidering what tractor it will be. Least I need 140 hp or more....... I have 2 choises John Deere or Cas Crystal. If I buy 6620 SE John Deere it means i will propably buy all other tractors from Deere too....... There will be missing 4 Zetor from marketing.

This is not much. But if everyone else do the same ???

Yes tractors will be bigger and bigger each year. In 140 to 180 hp category will be markets in future (is allready). This is category where ZTS was strong in Finland. There were lots of contractor who did use these tractor, but they use other tractors now and I think they will not change back to Zetors

This is bad for Zetor. I undertand these are not tractor where Zetor factory "is best" but they must offer bigger tractors too if they want to keep their customers 69)

What do you think folks?

hogi · Nov 23, 2004

Markku,

why you would change all your tractors to JD if you buy one John Deere? It thing that the combination of couple of brands would be the best alternative.

I strongly agree with you that Zetor should develop bigger (would it be UR V-series?) tractors. As soon as this new 6-cyl is lanched, we will sell our ZTS and buy new one.

Btw. what nick-name do you Markku use in finnish sites? Cosmic_Cowboy?

Renze · Nov 24, 2004

Hey guys, i have the exact translation of the agroweb article.

I got an email from an insider that follows this forum from a distance. He has a friend that speaks Czech, who translated this for us:

=== Before 1989 and following years. Zetor had 50-60% of Czech market, in 50-110hp they had 90%. Foreign makes were not competitive.
In 2003 Zetor sold 176 tractors in Czech market = 26%, making them No1, J.Deere was No2.
In 2003 they sold 69 tractors to Slovakia, plan to sell 80 in 2004.
Zetor did not have a good finance or leasing plan, the competition offered better deals.

Major. Still in production due to customer demand, the simplest range, in production over 20 years. The production will stop in 2005. Best selling points are :- no electrics, good price and large cab. Worst point, no front axle suspension. Most are sold as 4 x 4.

Proxima. Will replace Super by June. Engines from Proxima, with turbo. The old Super engine did not meet emission limits. Proxima with 3 cyl engine available shortly. In near future new model 9441, (90hp) will be available with new gearbox. The Proxima range is for the customer that wants a cheaper tractor than a Fortera. It has wet brakes on both axles, the front axle is Carraro with brakes integrated into it. The price is 750,000 Czk plus v.a.t.

Fortera. The highest model, the 11441 is the best selling model. Within 2 years a new 160hp 6 cylinder Zetor engine will replace the Italian Same one that is used in the 11741. ===

The good news : Zetor IS making work of the UR3 6 cylinder engine !
The bad news: We'll have to wait for 2006 to see them.

The last sentence gives no solution about whether this engine is going to be mounted in a Forterra, or in a new range of tractors... I think that means that the HTC people themself, are not sure what they want to do......

They cant wait for 2006 to buy the six cylinder engines. If tehy cant make it so quickly with the six, they need to power up that 4 cylinder 11441 to 140 hp NOW !!!

I think if HTC cannot get the sales volumes to make it profitable, they should take over the former ZTS works, and discontinue the 6.8 liter UR2 engine to replace it with the new UR3 engine, so they can sell them to Ursus as well... That will give a lot more sales volume for their engine. Next to that, they are able to use the UR4 rear axle and front axle, in a new UR5 range up to 200 hp. I suppose the UR4 7.3 long stroke engine is able to take 280 hp, if updated to the current level of metallurgy...

hogi · Nov 24, 2004

The price for proxima 8441 is 750,000 Czk plus v.a.t.. So it is approximately 24200 euros + VAT. I wonder, street price for 8441 proxima in Finland is only 22200 + VAT. And it includes more accessories than other ones.

markku · Nov 26, 2004

Hogi,

No, Im not Cowboy

2 marks combination? No, I dont think so, because then I have to keep 2* spareparts on the shelf. 2* service program. 2* different oils. 2* more work to learn techical works and using those tactors.

Example now we have spareparts from injection pump, hydraulic pumps, pistons, clutch etc. on the shelf. And some own sparepart manufacturing. So, IF something goes broken we can repair Zetor quickly! (waiting to get use those spareparts.....) (should not say that :-x ) If I have 2 different tractors this is more complicate.

Have a nice day!

P.S. I hope 160 hp range comes out soon! It seems there will be 1 nice 160hp ZTS for sale

treaney · Nov 29, 2004

So, IF something goes broken we can repair Zetor quickly!

Hi Markku,

Do you think that it will be feasible (both ecconomically and technically) for you to maintain the John Deere's as easily as you maintain the Zetor's/ZTS's?

I'm curious to know as I'm assuming that the JD's would require special tooling/equipment to do the maintenance. Then again maybe my assumption is wrong????

TomZ
Tom

markku · Nov 29, 2004

You are right that JD is certain more expensive to make service and repairs. But SE edition and older 6000 series tractor besed on same techics and there is "difficult" electricity only for engine and that is made by Bosch. So electricity should not be the problem. But how is the mechanically contruction?????????

As strong as Zetors/Zts has???? I doubt that...........

treaney · Nov 29, 2004

Markku,

I would have thought that JD's American and Mannheim designs would be at least as strong as Zetor 's.

I'm curious to know why you - as a tractor professional - go for JD over competitors such as an Ago brand (Fendt, Valtra, MF), an SDF brand (Same Deutz Fahr Lamboghini), CASE-IH, NH, McCormick, Claas/Renault.....
Is it the resale value of the JD, reliability, local dealer support....or what?

A recent Classic Tractor review pitted a JD against 3 rivals and the JD won so there must be something to them.

TomZ
Tom

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